Big news was broken yesterday.
Jesus and his family have been founded dead in their graves in Israel.
What does this discovery mean for the religious myths that bind us and for the sustenance of the Resurrection ideal to Christians across the world? How does one now translate God?
Without the Resurrection, doesn't Christianity become an empty vessel?
How can we begin to live if Jesus Christ has been found dead?
Does His death strengthen our faith?
Or does it weaken it with unanswerable questions that sting us like burrs in our socks?
The Time Magazine blog provides the details:
Brace yourself. James Cameron, the man who brought you 'The Titanic' is back with another blockbuster. This time, the ship he's sinking is Christianity. In a new documentary, Producer Cameron and his director, Simcha Jacobovici, make the starting claim that Jesus wasn't resurrected --the cornerstone of Christian faith-- and that his burial cave was discovered near Jerusalem. And, get this, Jesus sired a son with Mary Magdelene. No, it's not a re-make of "The Da Vinci Code."If this non-Resurrection discovery proves to be true or not, the necessary and prodigal process of shattering the Jesus myth into Atheism is telling on many levels.
It's supposed to be true.
Let's go back 27 years, when Israeli construction workers were gouging out the foundations for a new building in the industrial park in the Talpiyot, a Jerusalem suburb. of Jerusalem. The earth gave way, revealing a 2,000 year old cave with 10 stone caskets. Archologists were summoned, and the stone caskets carted away for examination. It took 20 years for experts to decipher the names on the ten tombs.
They were: Jesua, son of Joseph, Mary, Mary, Mathew, Jofa and Judah, son of Jesua. Israel's prominent archeologist Professor Amos Kloner didn't associate the crypt with the New Testament Jesus. His father, after all, was a humble carpenter who couldn't afford a luxury crypt for his family. And all were common Jewish names.
There was also this little inconvenience that a few miles away, in the old city of Jerusalem, Christians for centuries had been worshipping the empty tomb of Christ at the Church of the Holy Sepulcher. Christ's resurrection, after all, is the main foundation of the faith, proof that a boy born to a carpenter's wife in a manger is the Son of God. But film-makers Cameron and Jacobovici claim to have amassed evidence through DNA tests, archeological evidence and Biblical studies, that the 10 coffins belong to Jesus and his family.
I understand this revolt against the sanctity of the core of Christianity is a direct response to the rise of Christian Fundamentalism in America where Believers now force their myths into mandatory mainstream acceptance: "If you don't Believe, you're sinner; if you don't Repent, you're going into the fires of hell."
The Fundamentalists achieve that punctilious end by poisoning the Political process with their harsh and unloving beliefs and the rest of America -- the unmoved middle class who prefer soccer to sacrilege -- go along with the movements of the breeze as long as it doesn't adversely affect their lifestyle.
With the Far Right Fundamentalists pressing their agenda into Iraq and Iran and even here on the Homeland in the Supreme Court and in the villages and the valleys, the middle class are beginning to see their precious personal rights are winnowing away in the sweaty palms of those who believe in blood and nails and those who worship the implements of death like crucifixes and spears -- instead of loving each other just enough to leave people alone.
If the myth is unwillingly perpetuated into popular culture by the True Believers -- sooner or later people, good people, will rise up and fight back for the right to be left alone and to think as they wish and not as others command them to think. One of the weapons the mighty ordinary wield against the Myths of the Believers is the scientific process.
If you press "Lord Jesus" into our public schools and in our Courthouses beyond a cursory wave, science will be used to slay your myth and humble your outrageous and hateful claims against those you brand as unworthy and foreign and unlike you and those who choose not to believe as you Believe. This challenge to the Jesus Resurrection will prove interesting as science and technology become even more powerful and infallible.
Carbon Dating is hard to render into belief but it easily shatters myths. DNA does not lie or require Blind Faith to be believed. The New York Times has an article today detailing how the Radical Right cannot find a "suitable" candidate for the 2008 presidential election:
But in a stark shift from the group's influence under President Bush, the group risks relegation to the margins. Many of the conservatives who attended the event, held at the beginning of the month at the Ritz-Carlton on Amelia Island, Fla., said they were dismayed at the absence of a champion to carry their banner in the next election.The story goes on to examine the erosion of the Radical Right's influence in the substantial sleeping middle class and how dismayed the Christian Fundamentalists are as they realize their time in the sun is rightfully, righteously and religiously, fading away into deserved darkness. Belief can never trump Science if it is forced down the throats of the neutral and the unwilling.
Many conservatives have already declared their hostility to Senator John McCain of Arizona, despite his efforts to make amends for having once denounced Christian conservative leaders as "agents of intolerance," and to former Mayor Rudolph W. Giuliani of New York, because of his liberal views on abortion and gay rights and his three marriages.
Many were also suspicious of former Gov. Mitt Romney of Massachusetts; members have used the council as a conduit to distribute a dossier prepared by a Massachusetts conservative group about liberal elements of his record on abortion, stem cell research and gay rights. (Mr. Romney has worked to convince conservatives that his views have changed.)
When religion is made mandatory-by-politics in a democracy, people slowly begin to turn away from the forced heat of hatred and its dangerous branding aftereffects and they begin to awaken to realize they prefer to coolly challenge the myths binding the national mindset with the cold reality of the scientific process.
Some may hope to slay the non-Believers with the power of the sword, while the rest are perfectly content in allowing science to defend unfettered facts and to render radical religious dogma powerless in the overarching needs of humanity in order to get along together in the world without pressing one Faith into the flesh over another -- and that process begins and perpetuates -- in the discovery of a tomb in Israel where Jesua's body was found dead, but resurrected, by archaeology and science.
I wonder if the silence here speaks for itself - or if it is just Sunday blogging blues?
I have to admit the possible significance/ramifications of this had passed me by.
It is going to be very interesting to see how this plays out - and how the big players react to it.
Is this the end of organised religion as we know it ?
Hi Nicola!
I appreciate you leaping into the mix! We've had some nasty comments that didn't get published. One person accused me of "drooling over the savior's body" and it got worse from there. That kind of sniping without thought and argument serves no purpose.
The True Believers will react the same way they reacted to the scientific proof via Carbon-14 dating "The Shroud of Turin" was a fake:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/3624753.stm
I don't think this will end religion as we know it -- though I do find it fascinating so much Blind Faith is placed in the books of the Bible when it is such a disparate morass of different authors over a long period of time.
But if you can believe the Bible is the Word of God then you can easily explain away DNA and dead bodies by refusing to listen to the scientific discovery and by claiming those who do listen are going straight to the fiery pits of eternal Hell. That kind of threatening admonition shuts up most people pretty quickly.
Bit story. Big idea. I'm not surprised by the lack of a response. Those who agree with you don't want the hassle of dealing with those who don't. We've all seen, and some experienced, the fundamentalist attack dogs.
You're probably right, Anne. It's a hard thing to want to be left alone but see the rising time of fundamentalism circling all around you.
Soon those good people will have to rise up even more to press down the repression surrounding them.
There was a time in America -- I remember it being alive in my lifetime -- when you were free to choose as you pleased and no one would bother you either way or any way.
Those days are dead and gone and many people have been suffocating under the lies and false idols of the last 8 years and can't wait to get out from under the weight of its suffocating deception.
I think that's why there's such an anticipation for the 2008 election. People want to move on, to get away, to start something new and to get out from under these religious stigmata stinging our life as a nation.
I remember reading something someone said here a short time ago that if God is real it will be the scientists, not religious believers, who prove it. In light of today's article, that's an interesting idea to think about.
The scientific process is a hard taskmaster, Anne.
When one claims to have the all the truth and all the facts and then provides a myth and storytelling as evidentiary proof, the fact finders and the scientists will flock to the idea to provide its open-mouthed veracity or its occlusion.
"There was a time in America — I remember it being alive in my lifetime — when you were free to choose as you pleased and no one would bother you either way or any way."
So when did it change ...... and why ?
Anne - that is a very interesting viewpoint about the scientists proving the existence of God.
Hey Nicola!
I think it began in earnest as a political plan of advancement starring religious fundamentalism as an anchor of political governing with Ronald Reagan.
He gave rise and inclusion in the process of governing to overt religious fanatics who then began to set national policy from inside the Executive Branch and on the judicial benches across America.
Then we had a short break with Clinton -- but his blowjob gave the fanatics a justifiable reason to come out from their fundamentalist shell to feign outrage and disgust -- and that’s when sex and then women's rights and then abortion came under fire as “liberal advances” that must be repealed instead of honoring those accomplishments as the necessary evolution of gender rights.
The last 8 years have been a tamping down of what Reagan started and we see just how far off the cliff we've fallen at home and in our world standing.
I think that's why Barack Obama is so pleasing to so many: He's new. He was right on the war from the jump. He lives in the midst of discrimination and hatred every day of his life and he finds a way to not only survive, but to succeed as well.
I enjoy your thoughts on this Nicola and I like how you always jump right in fearlessly to answer whatever comes up. I don't remember who said that about the scientists discovering God here but it had to be here because this is where I get those kinds of ideas to think about.
I agree, Anne! There's nothing so great as a Nicola comment starting off the day and the thread!
:grin:
Here's more on the evolutionary proof of DNA:
Well someone has to ! :) :)
Thank you for the time line - I quite often try to look back and see where the UK's own brand of rot started and fail to pinpoint it - or get sidetracked down other avenues.
Barack Obama is indeed interesting - I don't think the Clintons are sleeping very well at the moment.
I think we need to be inspired - we need to know that there is hope - even in the worst situations - and we need to know that if WE work hard we will be rewarded. I get the feeling he gives people that hope.
I appreciate you coming in here on a Sunday and doing the heavy lifting on a hard topic, Nicola!
:grin:
I remember in school we took a Straw Poll in class and Reagan beat Bush, Sr. by 80 points in our “Republican Primary” and we all know kids that young are just voicing the wants of their parents.
Everyone was sick of Carter -- even the diehard Democrats.
I was shocked even back then because at least Bush, Sr. had some national exposure and experience while Reagan just seemed like some wild pretend cowboy from California. He had no substance.
It was then I realized that maybe it wasn't the man, but the moment, that defined national politics and presidential choices.
If Barack is the Democrat nominee he will lose. The Republicans will do to him what they did to Harold Ford, Jr. in the Tennessee Senate race. It will be ugly and obvious and divisive and it will be nothing new from them and we’ll have a new royal-in-waiting, King Rudy Giuliani.
Ahhhhhh the heir apparent ........... made of course by 9/11.
You think it will be a Clinton / Giuliani contest - and who will their running mates be?
Right! The problem with Giuliani is how cruel and awful he was pre-9/11. He'll be a further continuation of Bush's bully pulpit politicking.
Clinton/Obama would rock, but would people vote two first in one swig? Probably not. I predict Clinton/Bayh. Edwards won't go for the VP slot again and I don't blame him.
Giuliani needs someone to soften him up. He needs friendly. He needs someone like hmm... I'm having a hard time thinking of anyone Republican who fits that role. Hmm... maybe Joe Lieberman will finally bolt and make history twice!
Some are saying current NYC Mayor Michael Bloomberg might make an Independent run. He’ll use his own money and won’t have to owe or answer to anybody just as he does now in NYC and it’s working.
Apologies for taking this rather off topic ............ drags it back a little .
Question - do the churches donate money to the campaigns ?
ie do they collect money on a Sunday and donate on a Monday ?
Bloomberg option sounds interesting.
Nicola --
The churches don't really directly raise money for candidates, the Political Action Committees do that for them: PAC Money --
http://www.opensecrets.org/industries/indus.asp?Ind=Q14
-- Bloomberg is a strange and wonderful guy. He has the city humming. He's fair. He lives for his job. He truly answers to no one because few people have as much money as he does. He's the perfect politician in many respects: Tough, smart, kind-hearted, business savvy, no personal beliefs pressed into others, Inclusive.
WOW! what an interesting topic! my family is of mixed religions and so they get into huge battles and fueds, often going for years not speaking to each other as a result, over wither one religion is better than another, or which docteric is the "one true" docterin. I well have to pass this article on to them, see what they have to say about it... I could guess, they'll probl'y all say it's a hoax...
as for myself, I look at religion as a thing that we use to improve us, and as such I follow no one religion, but tudy all of them... one thing I like to do is to find historic proof... archological finds and such that support or refute various aspects of religon...
WOW! the possible discovery of Jesus' body! THAT is such a great find... the way I see it it could go one way or the other...
they prove it's him, and either religion goes crazy, drunk on power, each trying to be the one to "house" his body in their church, so they can charge people tons of money to come see his remains
or. they prove it's him and religion goes crazy, in their attempt to destroy the body and wipe it's esistance off the face of the earth so they can continue to milk money out of there members
either way, organized religion stands to make a foutune... I wonder if they well spend their riches on the sick and poor like Jesus was said to have done?
~~EK
David, I happened across your site after googling "MacBackup" and read your article on the "Book" Harddrive. Great Stuff - Then I saw the article on the discovery of Jesus' body.
First of all full dislosure: I am a born again Christian. 23 years ago almost to the day, I was a cocaine addict sitting alone after being up all night for five years. My distain for Christianity at the time was probably on par with yours. Then as I was channel surfing I hit a channel where a man was saying "Hey Man, are you happy?" Well I may have been high, but I wasn't happy. The next thing I heard was the same voice in my head that I'd been listening to for five years. "Forget this idiot, turn the channel and lets get crazy - YOU CAN'T CHANGE!"
A second later, before I could turn the channel, the guy on the TV said, "You see, You can't change yourself". I froze. "But I know someone who can - in fact he wants to make you a whole new creation" Pray with me right now, and Jesus will deliver you from whatever is afflicting you.
I did pray, and that morning, I was completely delivered from drug addiction.
Now back to your comments: Obviously someone has really offended you.
I doubt that you and I agree on much but the last thing I want as a Christian is to shut you up or persecute you or force my beliefs on you. That's not at all all what you see when you look at the Jesus of the Bible. God never ever violates our personal will and choice. You may not like what the Bible says, but you have every right to reject it. And having spent three years in the Army, I would have gladly died to support your constitutional rights.
So if we in the "religious right" have come across to you as being the cold insensitive beasts that you describe, I apologize to you.
Thanks for listening.
Andrew
Welcome to Urban Semiotic Eelkat!
You make an interesting argument that religion can make money on this discovery either way! Now that gives us all something to deeply consider, thank you!
Thanks for your fine and considered comment, Andrew, and welcome to Urban Semiotic!
Yes, I find it offensive when my fundamentalist Commander-in-Chief invokes God in his irrational reasoning for war:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A17347-2004Apr16.html
When Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson claim AIDS is God's curse against Gays, I get offended:
http://www.hatecrime.org/subpages/hatespeech/hate.html
I get offended when conservative religious fundamentalists like Rush Limbaugh make fun of the disabled for personal entertainment and private political gain:
http://urbansemiotic.com/2006/10/27/rush-of-the-oxycontin-moron/
UPDATE:
I discovered this article, "Jesus Found Dead in His Grave" disappeared from sight for several hours when it was made into a "Private" post by someone other than me.
This is the article URL for this post:
http://urbansemiotic.com/2007/02/25/jesus-found-dead-in-his-grave/
I sent the following email message to WordPress.com support for help on the matter:
I'll let you know what happens -- and if this post disappears from sight again soon or in the future -- please let me know via our Email area.
Thank you!
David W. Boles
Publisher, Urban Semiotic
http://UrbanSemiotic.com
Fascinating. I just bought a book today by Sylvia Browne about the life of Jesus. It too mentions the idea that Jesus did not die, but emerged alive from the crucifixion and created his own family line. Ms Browne is a gnostic who endeavors to study Christianity and other religions with an open mind and using facts in evidence (okay, she's also a world-renowned psychic, but you should not let that put you off. Ideas are ideas and you can pick and choose whatever resonates with you). I think you might find it interesting reading given your post.
I think you are brave to present this information this way. I can only imagine the hateful comments you've had to delete. And this from "loving Christians". Jesus is surely cringing at the behavior of his followers these days.
Maybe we'll get lucky and the Far Right will never find a "suitable" candidate to forward their agendas.
Thanks for the support anonymous and welcome to Urban Semiotic. Your support is valued and important!
UPDATE:
WordPress support told me random posts getting made "Private" is a system bug they are working on fixing.
How can you prove by DNA testing that it is the grave of Jesus? You'd either need some DNA to compare it to which you know is Jesus', or with DNA from known descendants. And someone 2000 years ago is probably going to be related (to a greater or lessor degree) to almost everyone alive today.
There must be a major part of the story we don't yet know, Ben! It will be fascinating to watch it all unfold and we can decide for ourselves what and who to believe or not.
Hello.
I am, in many ways, ignorant.
Especially when it comes to matters of religion and politics.
From this initial stance, please forgive or judge not too harshly, my opinion herein.
I am not overly concerned about whether Jesus was or was not resurrected.
I am more concerned about what Jesus taught.
I think he offered much good guidance - and fear, from my limited knowledge - that the Bible has done both mankind and Jesus - son of God or prophet - a great injustice.
Be His body found in a grave or be He resurrected, I hope His soul is peaceful.
- Solo xx
I don't even know what to say, this is disturbing news. I heard the report on the late news last night but didn't get a chance to listen to the full report.
It almost feels like the world is over now--that the end has actually come. Though not the way Revelations has described. Indeed we are sinners. And yet we've been fooled (perhaps).
Now the question, and the responsibility to be held on whom for such a lie and devious manipulation? If a lie.
Btw: I really enjoyed your writing style and reading this.
Welcome to Urban Semiotic, Solo!
For those who truly believe in Christianity, the Resurrection is the defining moment. Without the Resurrection, without Jesus dying for our sins and raising to Heaven to make room for us before he returns to bring us home -- the entire mythology around Jesus crumbles into ashes.
I agree His teachings and lessons of how lead a right life are good and important, but for True Believers, the lessons are not enough.
It's a pleasure to have you with us, ascreamingwriter, and welcome to Urban Semiotic!
Wowser! Now that's a fascinating idea: The End of the World, the True Revelation that Begins The Last Days is the scientific proof that Jesus was a fraud and his story was a myth. Wild!
Thanks for the compliments! It's terrific to have you with us!
UPDATE:
James Cameron and his research associate were on "The Today Show" this morning and they said, the three caskets together, the clustering of names together, and comparing the markings on the casket and the DNA of each person in the casket confirms they were all related and that Jesus was one of dead.
They went on to claim a Probability Study done by mathematicians beyond their inner circle confirmed that the probability that this was not Jesus and his family was 2 million to 1 -- or framed another way -- the mathematicians said it is 99% certain that the family tomb is Jesus and his family.
James Cameron will have a fuller press conference in an hour.
YOU ARE WRONG!!!!!!!!!!!! Think what you want but Jesus rose from the dead. This is just something to get attention.
Science and technology will tell us the facts, teenfg, but the belief belongs solely to you and no one can take that away from you without your direct consent.
Welcome to Urban Semiotic!
Hi Everyone:
There have been some very strong comments made so I wanted to just give my little tidbit. I am a believer in Jesus Christ, and it's my choice to believe. I truly believe that faith is a choice, and everyone has a right to believe or not to believe.
I also don't believe in dictating or putting my beliefs on the entire country or anyone else for that matter. I "choose" to live a certain way because of my choice to follow Christ and His teachings, thus, I don't expect others to follow those teachings if they have not chosen to believe in Jesus. It's just that simple.
Lastly, I am also not a participant in institutionalized or organized religion. I choose to follow Jesus in a more simple way of being in relationship with just a few other families in my immediate community. It's a simple life and a simple walk. So please don't draw a conclusion about what it means to be a Christian by what you see or hear in the media, or even on Christian television for that matter. Some things are a matter of tradition and religion and pride and arrogance and representative of the many flaws of man. Some things that are supposedly representative of Christianity are not really Christianity at all.
It sounds like some of you are truly seeking for truth - I pray that you find it.
Thanks for the fine comment, Dee Dee, and welcome to Urban Semiotic!
If the Resurrection of Christ turns out to be more myth than fact, how will that affect your faith and your ascent into Heaven?
Hi David:
You are a very interesting man :-), and I am glad that you have the freedom to explore this topic. Any "scientific" information found would not at all affect my choice to believe. As I stated earlier, faith is definitely a choice. If it were based upon scientific findings, I'd be tossed like a ship in the wind - believing today, and not believing tomorrow. Some might consider this to be naivity, and I can understand that thought. Faith in Christ is not something that can be understood intellectually. I believe that is what Andrew was saying. For me, it's like Andrew said, it's a knowing and it's a changed life that makes me sure of what I know. The best to you David.
Thanks for the follow-up comment, Dee Dee, and have a lovely day!
Hi Dee Dee Smith,
I am definitely a believer, I always have been. Please don't get that wrong. I certainly understand and know the scripture to say that we will be tested in our faith, that others will claim to have evidence, among other verses.
However, I find it incredibly sad that it wasn't news we've been waiting for thousands of years to hear, such as evidence found that follows scriptures.
In other words, I believe in God. But what if he is not the man we've been told? What if, for instance, the Catholic church for example (could be any church, I'm just using this one as an example; I come from protestant and catholic background) has manipulated the truths? Changed scripture for the benefit of people joining and following their church and religion? What if Jesus WAS JUST A MAN, one of their own, and the actual Jesus was indeed someone else, that someone being a man who never married or had children as we have been told, and as scriptures tell us? What if Jesus, the Jesus found noted today, was just an imposter hired by the church to travel and teach the lands and assume Jesus' identity? And as for Mary M and their son, what if that indeed was hidden, for it would have to be or Jesus wouldn't have looked as Holy for the Catholic church to plant their seeds and scriptures of their own?
Deep thoughts, a fragile topic none the less. Still, I believe. I'd dare not.
I DO believe that whoever is responsible, wherever the lies are hidden, the truth will come out.
It always does. And I'm a firm believer, and know, that.
On another note:
Thanks David for your gesture of welcome.
Thanks for that great comment, ascreamingwriter!
"The truth, when crushed to the ground, shall rise again."
As a born again Christian, I am more than mildly curious about something: do you expect that this will shake our faith and cause us to turn our backs on what we believe?
Seriously, from the post on your blog, it would seem, though I may be wrong, that you believe this "revelation" will cause believers to question the validity of the Bible, of God, and of Christ.
Thanks for time.
Julia
Welcome to Urban Semiotic, Julia!
I have no idea what effect the loss of The Resurrection would have on True Believers -- and I honestly don’t care one way or the other -- but I think it would be a sobering of the myth for the rest of us who were suspicious all along.
There are those who Truly Believe the earth was created by aliens -- and there's no shaking them from those tenets of faith despite the evidence of Evolution, Carbon Dating and the fossil record.
I highly agree with what Dee Dee said!
John 20 (New International Version)
New International Version (NIV)
Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984 by International Bible Society
John 20
The Empty Tomb
1Early on the first day of the week, while it was still dark, Mary Magdalene went to the tomb and saw that the stone had been removed from the entrance. 2So she came running to Simon Peter and the other disciple, the one Jesus loved, and said, "They have taken the Lord out of the tomb, and we don't know where they have put him!"
3So Peter and the other disciple started for the tomb. 4Both were running, but the other disciple outran Peter and reached the tomb first. 5He bent over and looked in at the strips of linen lying there but did not go in. 6Then Simon Peter, who was behind him, arrived and went into the tomb. He saw the strips of linen lying there, 7as well as the burial cloth that had been around Jesus' head. The cloth was folded up by itself, separate from the linen. 8Finally the other disciple, who had reached the tomb first, also went inside. He saw and believed. 9(They still did not understand from Scripture that Jesus had to rise from the dead.)
Please do not make assumptions! Once again believe what you want to but Jesus has risen from the dead! The Bible is truth do not question it!!! We disagree with almost EVERYTHING that the Davinci Code says.
I still believe in the resurection of Jesus. The DNA is probably in his family, but not his specifically. In doing genealogy research, I have found many nephews given the same name as their uncles. This particular Jesus must have had his brothers and sisters giving their kids his name "Jesus". Just a thought. It was common that first names were handed down in a family along with the last names. Joseph Jr. of Joseph Sr. probably gave his son the name Joseph who named his own son after his uncle, Jesus. The first name Mary ran rampant during that time. Names for women were unimaginative. Personally, I have five generations of "johns" in America when my surname was just starting here.
As a side note, without faith in God, there is no heaven for anyone. Faith is not something that can ever be conclusively proved. Otherwise, it wouldn't be called faith.
Also, sorry to post again, some gnostic Christians (almost wiped out in medevial times) believe that he will return for his body. But, they still believe in the salvation that Jesus offers them.
Jesus, what have you done? From messiah to stage attraction. Isn't it written somewhere that Jesus was ressurected a couple of months after he died? If that is true, wouldn't he still be alive today? How can one group believe him to be the messiah? Shouldn't all groups agree on that to make it true?
See, this is what society does. Religion used to be spiritual. Now it is just marketing.
Sara said "Faith is not something that can ever be conclusively proved. Otherwise, it wouldn’t be called faith."
I was thinking about posting something along these lines, but you beat me to it!
In a post on about this particular blog post, someone mentioned "blind faith". To me, all faith is blind and, as humans, we put our faith in many things every day. One website (and not a Christian one at that) says faith is belief, trust, or confidence, not necessarily based on logic, facts, reason, or empirical data . . .
To say one has "blind faith" is really redundant as faith is already blind in that it is based, as stated above, not necessarily on logic, facts, reason, or data.
Faith and Blind Faith are, indeed, different concepts.
You have Blind Faith by suspending belief in facts, true understanding or appropriate discrimination.
You have Faith in things and objects and people.
Thank you to everyone for a stimulating conversation on this difficult matter!
The dialogue is beginning to turn in circles now and get repetitive and that’s when it’s time to close our commentary and move on to the next topic of the moment.
UPDATE:
Due to popular demand, I am re-opening the comments for this article with the following caveat: Only comments that are interesting to me and intellectually pleasing to the open-minded middle core will be published.
I will heavily moderate comments on this article from here on out with that caveat in mind.
I will not allow what has been an important and fruitful conversation to degrade into "me too" quotes and posting Bible verses and emotional testimony about the goodness of the Savior.
I direct you to our Comments Policy for more information:
http://urbansemiotic.com/comments-policy/
I may not be able to respond to every single comment posted from here on out -- as is my usual want here -- due to the pressing demands of other matters.
I do read and enjoy every published comment.
Thank you!
Hi david
The truth is, this is the only article (really) that made me read all the comments from top to bottom and from what's going on here, its a great discussion and exchange of thoughts and ideas.
My personal belief is that, religion and science should compliment and travel together. Not try to disprove one or the other. But then, when it comes to beliefs and faith, I throw them back to the rightful owner - each and individual human being.
And along the comments, i think somebody is hardly trying to force one to believe what he/she believes. I hope you know who that is, and you can handle it well :)
Interesting read.
Thanks for the comment, dimaks, and welcome to Urban Semiotic!
I agree the comments here are dynamic and interesting and helpful in giving a frame of understanding to a difficult topic.
However, when the comments waiting for moderation begin to degrade with repetition in a conjoined effort to drown out the good voices with gang radicalism and hatred, I get weary of the noise but I won't be defeated by it -- they just won't be able to find voice here any longer and when you visit their personal websites you immediately see their vested interest in repressing our intellectual conversation here in favor of blindly following what has come before there.
David, the man with a stand :)
Ha! We try to stand for the right things, dimaks, but people are always eager and willing to try to tip you over!
:mrgreen:
This is fascinating. I took a look at the original blog and was surprised by how much debate is going on.
I'm an agnostic but admit I am curious to know how how the DNA thing works?
I've been studying the work of David Hume for a university course. He questioned notions such as "the soul" and "faith" and was reviled by public and scholars alike. I can't help but note how little the world has really changed since then when it comes down to arguments of faith.
Great post, and great commentary, thanks for giving me more to think about.
Hi there I stumbled across this article, first I have to say that this the first I heard of this new discovery, I am a christian, and have a question about how the DNA proves it was Jesus? Second I really like your writing style and have to say I was turned off by the story as my convictions and beliefs tell me that what they discovered is false. But I was still very drawn in by your thoughts and comments through out. Well if you have any information on the DNA stuff, Let me know - Thanks
Lee -
Welcome to Urban Semiotic, puddlejumper!
Thanks for the interesting comment and the kind support.
I'm sure the DNA stuff will be revealed in the documentary, but here's a tidbit:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/jesus_s_burial;_ylt=Ajt8TEGbt_Rl7w17fGx1JA1.KcMA
Here's the official website for the documentary:
http://dsc.discovery.com/convergence/tomb/tomb.html?dcitc=w99-502-ah-1024
Mother Of Stupids is Always Pregnant. The don't forget that Cameron wants to make money. Its Show Biz and the show must go on, at any cost.
I guess I didn't deserve all those childhood slaps by my best friend's devout Catholic mom for taking Jesus's name in vain!
Hmm, I'm not religious but this news sort of depresses me. Who will punish me for being a bad girl? Hmm.
I am looking forward to sitting back and watching this unfold.
I'd rather live through the spirit of religion than religion itself.
Hi, interesting site you have. :-) Great post. Very intriguing.
One quick question. In your post, it said:They were: Jesua, son of Joseph, Mary, Mary, Mathew, Jofa and Judah, son of Jesua.But when I clicked on the last link (The Discovery Channel one), the names are different: Maria (Mary), Matthew, Mariamne (Mary Magdalene), Jesus, Judah, Yose, and James. I'm just confused--- err, I just wanted to make sure I wasn't getting the names mixed up by accident. I mean, I'm assuming that Yose & Jofa are the same names, right? & how come James isn't in the list?
Well, like I said, GREAT POST. :-D Have a good one!
gee, my faith is rocked. guess i better get on with my life now and quit lying to myself...
as a Christian, I'm sorry most of us have been intolerant jerks and snobs that don't resemble life of the guy you claim is dead. if we did, maybe people wouldn't have to try and dig up boxes to prove to us we're wrong.
sorry, this doesn't rattle my faith in the least. you know why? Christianity is a relationship with God. it may seems goofy to you, but I know God in the person of Jesus. you can jump up and down and say it isn't real, but when something is already more real to me then my name, it doesn't matter what anybody supportively thinks he has proven.
Many tombs found in the vicinity of the heavily-hyped tomb contain names found in the tomb of particular interest, as has been widely reported. There are not yet scholarly, peer-reviewed papers on the find. Those who require ostensibly scientific proof right away aren't establishing themselves as credible and authoritative.
It's the same old situation: Science will neither prove nor disprove whether there is sufficient basis for religious faith.
marizen --
Welcome to Urban Semiotic and I appreciate your questions and wondering very much.
The names are confusing. Some reports use the old names, the translated, names, etc.
The key to the names and DNA is, as I understand the argument, Mary Magdalene. Her name is so unique that it can only be she in the casket. Then the son in the other casket -- Judah –- is confirmed related to her by blood as her son via DNA testing. Then we move to the man in the box who, through DNA testing, is also the father of Mary Magdalene's son -- and he happens to named Jesus (aka Jesua) with special casket indicators that he was not one of the many Jesuses running around out there at that time in antiquity.
Then you have to consider families were buried together back then as one and you being to see how the condition of the pattern becomes ripe for statistical analysis.
Now you have to wonder: How man Jesuses would have been with THAT Mary Magdalene and also fathered a son with her?
That's where we are right now in our scientific wonderment.
"Simcha Jacobovici" - a Canadian JEWISH producer - my theory - someone is still
trying to crucify MY Lord. Won't work for me. It's called "FAITH". This is a money seeking venture (and of course if they could crucify Jesus again it would probably be
very satisfying to them personally) - that's just another theory I have.
I have nothing against Jewish people. Do not misunderstand. I simply cannot help but
try to come to the defense of one who was already crucified for us!
Maybe the story of Jesus was to be like a parable of sorts to remind us all that it doesn't matter what background we come from, we are all worthy of love and happiness.
This might have been the arrival he spoke of too. He said he'd come again. Now it's time to assess what is what and continue on.
Everything happens for a reason and everything happens when it happens for a reason as well.
Radical Fundamentalism is sad but those Christians who try to force their beleifs on others and tell non-Christians that they're going to hell are obviously deceived in the whole message of the Bible. They have some sort of alternate agenda. Christians, "little Christs", are supposed to do just that...be like Jesus. Jesus didn't go around condemning others. Someone like Mother Theresa is a model Christian and if all Christians could see that and do their best to be like her, like Jesus, then the world would have a much better veiw of Christianity. The bible is not historical context and it's supposed to be taken literally. The writings are meaningful and contain important answers to how one should relate and act in everyday life. It's sad that the truely good Christians aren't heard from since they silently and humbly do the will of God. Same thing with Muslims, there are fundamentalist Muslims that are filled with hate and anger. That's not the teaching of the Quar'an. Those are the ones who are out there acting out and making a name for the Muslim community. Honestly, I don't beleive this story has any credentials, otherwise it would be in the newspaper or just plain in the news, period. But even if Jesus were to be found, it wouldn't destroy the teachings of true selflessness and humility. If his body was found then good--One of the most reverenced teachings is how human Jesus really was-- that God humbled himself to walk like one of us on earth. In this way we can much better relate with him. He's been there, he knows the sufferings and trials that each human being goes through. He suffers temptation, also. The New Testament is about his journey and his ministry to others... it's not neccessarily a biography.
I guess that people will have to fall back on the bunny to get true meaning from Easter.
Wow, very interesting story for sure. This really could change the face of religion as we know it. That is, if it's proven to be 100% true. Otherwise, if there's even a 1% chance of it being false, not a single devout Christian will believe it.
But, then again, there never really was 100% proof of anything God related ever happening. Selective beliefs, I suppose.
The Duck Has Spoken.
It just shows that a normal man can make a big difference in the world one man can chage everything and not a super human being. One person can make a difference and save the world.They do not have to be a super human.We or people do not have to lose our faith because of this.Finding jesus's bones doesnt mean that the bible is no longer true.Things were worded differently then.It was there way of speaking. So i still have my faith. I just think that you dont have to be superman or have a special power i think a regular person can save the world.A person like you or me.Maybe that is the message.Love one another... I mean isnt that what we learned from him and keep learning from him.
The social ramifications of the findings are deep. However, the ramifications to Christians is nominal. I don't ignore scientific facts, just view them through a different lens. For example, evolution could have certainly happened - I just believe God started it and how God choses to do/create something isn't my worry, just that God did.
I also want to make a clarification on some comments about Christians. I do NOT subscribe to the Fundamentalist camp. My blog is actually dedicated to moderate Christian theology and thought. Fundamentalists / "The Christian Right" (which I like to say is neither Christian nor right) has messed up Christianity by doing exactly what you (and I) accuse them of - running people off from Christ due to actions and forcing their beliefs on others. This is even done through politics. Take a look at those that act this way, you'll see one thing in common - a desire for power. People who pursue power are not following Jesus's life- the Jesus who I believe conquored death.
I don't understand why this discovery (if it really is Jesus) means "the end of Christianity." If Jesus comes back, I don't think he's going to use a 2,000 year old body. He'd probably be able to fashion himself a nice new body- he's the son of God, afterall.
Why does finding a human shell (it's just the body, not the spirit) promote atheism? I would think it would promote the belief that he actually existed. I'm not being critical, I'm just confused.
I realize this is the 1,204th comment, and I haven't read them all yet, so I apologize if I'm being redundant.
....and why does "resurrection" mean that his body itself has to have been resurrected? I think "resurrection" means that Jesus continued to live, but not necessarily his body. Faith is about going beyond the body- For Christians, I believe Jesus is resurrected in our hearts and in the earth. He doesn't have to be a risen physical body that was once clinically dead. Those are human terms.
I am a Christian, but I am also a far-left liberal. I believe God loves everyone, and that the Bible has been copied to many times to be the literal truth anymore, and should be used to provide direction, not to divide people over technicalities.
I'm probably in the minority about that one though.
I truly believe in Jesus,somehow its strange that DNA of Jesus was taken, do we have a proof that our science does have DNA of Mary or Joseph?....Bible clearly talks about false jesuses that will be brough in this world, somehow its strange then that Jesus as beibg a mortal person could resurrect dead people?...history clearly shows that such a Jesus was and did miracles that Israle was not facing. I am more positively sure that what you found is a proof of satan's plan, like the Leonardo's code. For me Jesus is Lord, and whatever scientists could find, will be not a proof for the true believers!
God bless you all!
Marchel
R. Moldova
OK, I'm not a Christian -- so I probably don't get it -- but I have schooled in a Christian convent school, and there's one thing that puzzles me deeply. What's the big deal if Christ was a mortal man, and if he wasn't resurrected? What really matters is what he taught, and the principles that one believes in.
In fact, in this age of science, technology, and reason ... isn't it more reasonable to assume that the resurrection theory is just an exaggeration that got amplified over several years?
God is energy.
Everything is energy.
We all have it. It's how we use it that counts.
UPDATE:
Some of you are wondering about the importance of the body in the notion of Resurrection.
The Catholic Church, as one example, is centered on the actual body ascending into Heaven. If there's a body left behind, then the miracle is destroyed:
http://www.catholic.com/library/Resurrection_of_the_Body.asp
For Catholics, Jesus’ body in a casket is not a Resurrection and the miracle of the rising is destroyed.
Laura --
You remind me of a recent article I wrote: Translating God.
http://urbansemiotic.com/2007/01/30/translating-god/
Just to clarify,
"The key to the names and DNA is, as I understand the argument, Mary Magdalene. Her name is so unique that it can only be she in the casket."
The articles said that was Mary, Mary, not Mary Magdalene. So it could be any Mary.
And, Amos Kloner, an ARCHAEOLOGIST, (the one who supervised the excavations in that grave), said that all the evidence is FALSE.
And if you want to know the SCIENTIFIC MANNERS of the Jacobovici-Cameron COMBO, just watch their other SCIENTIFIC documentary that PROVES EXODUS: EXODUS DECODED... it is funny ;)
CJBS
Here's an e